Exclusive: Interview with David Virtue of VirtueOnline
One of the things we enjoy is the chance to occasionally interview people.
In this post, we interview David Virtue, publisher of VirtueOnline.
While we hold differing views on some issues, including same-sex marriage, we welcome David on this site. He has been a valued friend and trusted colleague for a number of years.
– Editor
ANGLICAN WATCH: David, you’ve been covering issues in Anglicanism and the Episcopal Church for a long time. Tell us about your experience in the Episcopal Church.
VOL: That could take a book, Eric. In brief, I started out at an evangelical Episcopal parish in Paoli, PA, which had a godly priest, now deceased. We had several good priests who followed. I was there for more than 10 years. When Charles Bennison became bishop, he went on a rampage to get rid of orthodox priests. It was he who said, that men wrote the Bible and men could re-write it. It was a bridge too far for many of us. The dogfights with Anglo-Catholic and evangelical priests were fierce with many losing their parishes and resigning. TEC was embracing homosexuality in all its forms and that did not sit well. This was pre-Robinson’s consecration. I left with sorrow. There was no ACNA parish so I went to an independent evangelical church. I missed the liturgy, music and eucharist. But I could not go back.
ANGLICAN WATCH: You left the Episcopal Church. What led to this? I know you had concerns about same-sex marriage, but was there more to it than that?
VOL: Yes, it was the authority of Scripture. That was the underlying issue. Homosexuality (same-sex marriage) was a symptom, not the actual cause. I had no problem with people being homosexual, I had a gay brother-in-law (he died of AIDS), and one of my best friends, a Baptist minister, died of AIDS in the 80’s, but that was not the primary issue. I didn’t like having it thrust in my face. I objected to being called homophobic when all I said was I disagreed with the behavior. I even got along quite well with the late Louie Crew. We were friendly at general conventions. I think the defiance of Scripture finally got to me. If Scripture wasn’t clear about this (and it is) why should I believe anything I was being told? I was not surprised when Katharine Jefferts Schori could not affirm the bodily resurrection of Jesus.
ANGLICAN WATCH: Tell us how you wound up publishing Virtue Online?
VOL: It started out quite spontaneously. I began to write about the issues that I saw and I sent it to a few friends and it blossomed form there. I really didn’t start out to conquer the church. It grew from a listserve, to a website and then full-on social media. I became a non-profit 501©3 and people began to support me. I never got rich, and frankly I never cared, I just wanted to write and get the word out. Apparently, I was successful.
ANGLICAN WATCH: From your vantage point, when and where did the Episcopal Church go wrong?
VOL: Good question. I believe it started to go wrong when bishops and priests started doubting the authority of Scripture. They lost confidence in Scripture and rotated to the culture. The seminaries rolled over first and it all started going downhill from there. From the seminary to the pulpit to the pew, priests gave off an uncertain sound. That was the beginning of the end. Only TSM, (Ambridge, PA) and Nashotah House held the line, the rest went off on social issues and woke theology. Spong led the charge, though his views have faded, but he had a real hold on the HOB for a long time, and many believed his take. Bishops and priests were anxious to go along with the culture, “Thus saith the Lord,” was not on their lips. The roll over now is pretty well complete. The new PB Sean Rowe I think senses things have gone too far and is pulling back. You can see it in his utterances. He wants change, but the question is, how much.
ANGLICAN WATCH: One thing I find painful is that the Episcopal Church no longer seems to be big enough to welcome conservatives. How do you respond to that?
VOL: That’s an excellent observation Eric. I don’t think TEC wants conservatives at all. I think they are glad they have gone. But this is a two-edged sword. Conservatives have money, the laity (many are politically conservative), still fill pews out of long-standing relationships, and they still love the Episcopal Church, the Prayer Book etc. They want to be buried in columbarium in their parish cemeteries when they die.
Witness what happened to Charlie Holt in the Diocese of Florida, a conservative who was not out to rock the boat, and he was treated very badly in my opinion. The anger and hate towards Albany Bishop Bill Love is another example. These are good men who got beaten up by revisionists because they would not fully compromise on issues they held firmly too. They did not hate anyone, they simply disagreed. They deserved better treatment.
ANGLICAN WATCH: Is there a fact pattern under which you and other conservatives might consider reuniting with the Episcopal Church?
VOL: With the birth of the ACNA I don’t think that is possible; too much water has flowed under the bridge. With the birth of GAFCON and GSFA globally, sides have been drawn up. Two recent archbishops, both women, with one being a lesbian, is a bridge too far for the Global South and for orthodox Anglicans in North America. I think the divisions will only widen in time, perhaps full-blown schism. We shall see.
ANGLICAN WATCH: We’ve talked at length about corruption in the Episcopal Church. What do you see as the primary issues for clergy discipline within the denomination?
VOL: Corruption is endemic in most major denominations these days; it is not just an Episcopal problem. When you weaken doctrine around sexuality issues then you open up the flood gates. You have been writing about this for some time. St. Thomas Fifth Avenue being a recent case in point. With doctrine weakened, discipline goes next. If you accept homosexuality as a legitimate sexuality, how do you define consent and abuse? It is difficult. Of course, pedophilia is totally unacceptable, but even there I sense the language is changing and this could lead to an easing in behavior.
ANGLICAN WATCH: Is clergy discipline getting better in the Episcopal Church, or are we seeing a rearranging of the deck chairs onboard the Titanic?
VOL: I would say worse. Dodging and weaving around the issue is epidemic though I get the feeling PB Rowe may be tougher. We shall see.
ANGLICAN WATCH: One thing that is impressive about the Roman church is the efforts it’s made to clean up its act when it comes to abuse. How does that compare to the Episcopal Church’s perception of itself as at the vanguard of safeguarding?
VOL: I’m not sure I would agree with you. My reading from multiple sources is that 80% of Catholic priests right up to cardinals are actively homosexual. With those numbers abuse is always a reality. I have not seen Pope Leo take a definitive stand on homosexuality. I think he is following his predecessor, “Who am I to judge?”
ANGLICAN WATCH: How do you feel about the Title IV clergy disciplinary canons? Are they effective? Or perhaps a paper tiger?
VOL: For the moment paper tiger. Let’s see what Rowe does to tighten the Title IV canons.
ANGLICAN WATCH: We’ve long been concerned about what we see as a faulty theology of forgiveness in the Episcopal Church. What are your thoughts on this?
VOL: Forgiveness cannot be pronounced until and unless there is full repentance. I don’t see that, because of a weakened Doctrine of Sin.
ANGLICAN WATCH: Some say that current presiding bishop Sean Rowe is genuinely interested in Title IV reform and cleaning up the church. Do you agree? And can Rowe be successful in this endeavor?
VOL: I think he is genuine in trying; but it is an uphill fight. He knows the canons have not been followed and he needs to fire those responsible for not enforcing them. It’s a game of wait and see.
ANGLICAN WATCH: Can the Episcopal Church survive, or are we seeing it move through its final days?
VOL: Demographics don’t lie. The average age of an Episcopalian is close to 70; there are no new generations coming forward. Over 1,000 parishes have between 10-20 parishioners. They will be gone in five years. Some 15,000 churches will close in the US this year, according to demographers at Pew and Ryan Burge. Only one percent of ALL churches in the US are doing effective evangelism. I doubt if that is any different in TEC. No evangelism, no discipleship, then certain death. You can preach all the woke sermons you like, but convincing Mildred and Harvey who are 70 and 77 respectively that they are systemic racists, isn’t going to cut it. With only two percent Blacks in TEC, it is unlikely they have ever seen a black man in their church. Ditto for homosexuals.
ANGLICAN WATCH: If the Episcopal Church can survive, what would it take? And does the denomination and the episcopacy have the will needed to change?
VOL: It would take clergy of conviction to stand up and say; “I am not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ; it is the power of God unto salvation …repent and believe in the gospel.” I don’t think they are prepared to say that, because deep down I don’t think they believe it. I don’t think they have the will to change.
ANGLICAN WATCH: Where do you see the Episcopal Church in 20 years?
VOL: Most of the dioceses will have merged and most of the churches closed and gone. There will be exceptions of course, mostly in the south. But the Midwest and North and Northeast will be gone. Part time priests are growing as churches can’t afford a full-time priest. Churches with endowments do better.
ANGLICAN WATCH: Are you seeing positive trends within the Anglican Communion?
VOL: There are 100 million Anglicans in the latest count. The Anglican communion is basically black, female, under 30, and fairly poor. They already dominate the Anglican Communion. That will continue to grow.
ANGLICAN WATCH: Some say the Church of England is collapsing, with only a small percentage of Brits having any interest in the state church. How does this compare to the situation confronting the Episcopal Church?
VOL: True. Only one million attend services weekly out of a population of nearly 70 million. (Three million regularly play bingo.) Yes, the Church of England is collapsing as she follows the bell curve of the Episcopal Church. When you cave into modernity it is the kiss of death. The Church is a counter culture, not a conduit for the culture.
ANGLICAN WATCH: We’ve heard it said that vast swaths of the Episcopal Church have chosen death, versus change. What is your reaction to this?
VOL: Sadly true.
ANGLICAN WATCH: How do you respond to those who say that Christianity is no longer relevant to modern society?
VOL: Yes, there has been about 40 million adults (16 percent) in America today who used to go to church but no longer do, but the tide is turning with Gen Z. The news is mixed for this generation still, but I am hopeful that all is not lost in America. Around the world it is different. In Iran, 2,000 people are finding Christ every day, because Islam is bankrupt. China is seeing millions meeting in underground churches. Africa is predominantly a Christian continent. Christianity is the largest religion in Africa. America might be finished but Christianity is thriving in other areas of the world. All is not lost.
ANGLICAN WATCH: Thank you so much for your time.
VOL: My pleasure.